Members of my family suffered at the hands of Hitler. It is always unwise to patronise people you don't know.
"The best manner of avenging ourselves is by not resembling him who has injured us." - Jane Porter
By hating Saddam, we become like him. In condemning him to death, we are supporting what he did. His death won't heal any wounds or bring back the dead. It is not my view that is naive. You have far too much faith in the power of spite. If Saddam is put to death, he wins. Is that what you want?
I’m patronising you? I’m Iraqi. My family has suffered directly, and continues to suffer, at the hands of Saddam Hussein for the past 30 years. And you have spent the past 2 days telling me that I have no right to wish him dead. That I have no right to want him tried for his crimes. That by not turning the other cheek I ‘become like him’.
Who’s patronising who?
And exactly how does putting him to death mean that he’s won? We’re supposed to pat him on the back and say “it’s ok, we forgive you, hating you isn’t going to bring back our dead, so you go on your merry way and we’ll get over it”?
If Hitler hadn’t killed himself, or had his friend shoot him or whatever, he would have been tried for his war crimes. Or do you not think he should have been tried? Do you think all of Hitler’s other henchmen who have been tried have been done an injustice? If that’s the case, then why do we bother trying any criminals at all?
Or is it just Saddam Hussein that you don’t think should be tried? Why? Because the UK and America illegally invaded Iraq? Ok fine, they illegally invaded Iraq. How does that make his trial illegal or unjust? It’s not America or England that’s trying him. It’s the Iraqi government that is trying him. And just who the hell are you to decide that the Iraqi government is illegal? In case it escaped you, they were voted into power. I should know, because I distinctly remember casting my vote in the ballot box. Saddam Hussein has been illegally ruling – or ruining – Iraq for over 2 decades. He seized power by force and murder and against the will of everyone in the country and with the help of your own governments. So how is his government legal? The present Iraqi government, regardless of how it came to be, is far more legal and justifiable than Saddam Hussein’s was. And they have a right to try their own criminals.
So I suggest you save your misdirected sympathy and compassion towards Saddam Hussein for someone more deserving.
I’m patronising you? I’m Iraqi. My family has suffered directly, and continues to suffer, at the hands of Saddam Hussein for the past 30 years. And you have spent the past 2 days telling me that I have no right to wish him dead. That I have no right to want him tried for his crimes. That by not turning the other cheek I ‘become like him’.
Who’s patronising who?
Actually, I've spent most of the past two days working. If you'd like me to patronise you, I'nm quite happy to do so. So far I have spoken to you with great respect.
If you want somebody to die because you dislike what he has done, how are you different from him? If you do things because of hatred or a thirst for blood, how are you different from him? If you take pleasure in the thought of someone suffering, how are you different from him?
And exactly how does putting him to death mean that he’s won?
It's very simple. If we kill him, we will pay for it. Evil always rebounds on the perpetrator. His will rebound on him, without any need for us to murder him. Ours will also rebound. He wants us destroyed and you want us to help to destroy ourselves! You are Saddam's puppet. Any person that you hate has power over you. He controls your thoughts and actions. To deny him influence over you, it is necessary to overcome hatred.
We’re supposed to pat him on the back and say “it’s ok, we forgive you, hating you isn’t going to bring back our dead, so you go on your merry way and we’ll get over it”?
Why not imprison him, along with Bush and Blair? The three of them could punish each other. What are you afraid of? Why do you want this man to continue to have power over you?
If Hitler hadn’t killed himself, or had his friend shoot him or whatever, he would have been tried for his war crimes. Or do you not think he should have been tried? Do you think all of Hitler’s other henchmen who have been tried have been done an injustice? If that’s the case, then why do we bother trying any criminals at all?
I want Saddam tried, as you would know if you had paid attention to what I said, instead of what you want to believe I said. I just want the trial to be fair and legal. Why do you object to that? Are you afraid a fair trial may deny you your fun?
Or is it just Saddam Hussein that you don’t think should be tried? Why? Because the UK and America illegally invaded Iraq? Ok fine, they illegally invaded Iraq. How does that make his trial illegal or unjust? It’s not America or England that’s trying him. It’s the Iraqi government that is trying him. And just who the hell are you to decide that the Iraqi government is illegal? In case it escaped you, they were voted into power. I should know, because I distinctly remember casting my vote in the ballot box. Saddam Hussein has been illegally ruling – or ruining – Iraq for over 2 decades. He seized power by force and murder and against the will of everyone in the country and with the help of your own governments. So how is his government legal? The present Iraqi government, regardless of how it came to be, is far more legal and justifiable than Saddam Hussein’s was. And they have a right to try their own criminals.
The current government is a puppet regime put in to facilitate the theft of resources by the US,. You are the only Iraqi I have come across so far who doesn't see that.
So I suggest you save your misdirected sympathy and compassion towards Saddam Hussein for someone more deserving.
Again, you misunderstand me, deliberately perhaps. I believe everyone has the same rights. I would defend your rights too, should you be in his position. You, like Saddam, see only a world of friends and foes. I see a world of people. When Saddam is dead, your victory is going to be very hollow. You have set him up on his own little throne in your life and he will always be a part of your life, until you give up hatred and spite. I once made the same mistake you are making. I know how badly you are injuring yourself.
When we use the tactics and values of Saddam, we dishonour those he murdered. I respect them too much to do that.
Sorry if you find this patronising, but if you speak nonsense in public, people will challenge it.
You seem to have set yourself as the moral guide for the world.
Who are you to decide what's evil and not?
You have no idea what you're talking about. None whatsoever. And you have no right to butt into a private conversation and tell people they're not entitled to their opinions.
Who are you to decide what would be a fair trial?
You don't respect any Iraqis. If you did, you would respect their right to decide how to punish their own criminals. So please, do not pretend that you give a shit about the welfare of any Iraqi person.
Where did I say what is evil? You're inventing a whole new lot of things to disagree with.
I also never said you're not entitled to an opinion.
This isn't a private conversation. It's a public one.
I care more about the Iraqi people than you do, since you are the one who wants to kill one and I want them all to stay alive. You also support an oppressive regime, whereas I do not.
Admit it, you hate me because I'm telling the truth and it's truth you don't want to hear.
Incidentally, I always take bad language as an admission of defeat.
Oh that's clever. Very clever. I mean, thank you for opening my eyes - obviously those quotes relate absolutely to this situation and I can't thank you enough for educating me.
You know, at first, I thought you were just idealistic. Now, I get the impression that you're actually telling me that it's wrong to hate Saddam Hussein, in which case, I think you're sick. And no better than him.
And I really don't wish to continue this discussion with someone I have no respect for.
Now, I get the impression that you're actually telling me that it's wrong to hate Saddam Hussein, in which case, I think you're sick. And no better than him.
That has to be the most bizarre statement I've ever seen anywhere. Saying hate is wrong is sick?
It is wrong to hate anyone. It is not just wrong but stupid, weak and cowardly. It is a failure of humanity, an abrogation of responsibilities, an insult to those who have suffered as a result of hate. I am not the one who is sick.
Hatred is a disease. It will corrupt every part of your life. Your hatred for Saddam is his victory over you. I will allow him no such victory over me. You may be willing to surrender your life to a worthless tyrant, but I have better uses for mine. By granting him such power, you dishonour the dead. His victims deserve respect, even if I do not.
I wish you better sense in the future. Enjoy the vicarious thrill of his death. There will come a time when you are disgusted with yourself for desiring it. You might as well get all the pleasure you can from it now. Enjoy the next bomb in London or New York too. Those are also the result of hatred like yours.
I think that last bit has put this beyond the "Play Nice" rule.
I understand you want to defend your view, but the comparison you're making is unfair. If it weren't for a matter of minutes, I would have had a much more personal experience on the 7th of July, and idle comments like that are more hurtful and hateful when you put them into that context.
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(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-29 10:38 pm (UTC)"The best manner of avenging ourselves is by not resembling him who has injured us." - Jane Porter
By hating Saddam, we become like him. In condemning him to death, we are supporting what he did. His death won't heal any wounds or bring back the dead. It is not my view that is naive. You have far too much faith in the power of spite. If Saddam is put to death, he wins. Is that what you want?
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:37 am (UTC)I’m Iraqi. My family has suffered directly, and continues to suffer, at the hands of Saddam Hussein for the past 30 years. And you have spent the past 2 days telling me that I have no right to wish him dead. That I have no right to want him tried for his crimes. That by not turning the other cheek I ‘become like him’.
Who’s patronising who?
And exactly how does putting him to death mean that he’s won? We’re supposed to pat him on the back and say “it’s ok, we forgive you, hating you isn’t going to bring back our dead, so you go on your merry way and we’ll get over it”?
If Hitler hadn’t killed himself, or had his friend shoot him or whatever, he would have been tried for his war crimes. Or do you not think he should have been tried? Do you think all of Hitler’s other henchmen who have been tried have been done an injustice? If that’s the case, then why do we bother trying any criminals at all?
Or is it just Saddam Hussein that you don’t think should be tried? Why? Because the UK and America illegally invaded Iraq? Ok fine, they illegally invaded Iraq. How does that make his trial illegal or unjust? It’s not America or England that’s trying him. It’s the Iraqi government that is trying him. And just who the hell are you to decide that the Iraqi government is illegal? In case it escaped you, they were voted into power. I should know, because I distinctly remember casting my vote in the ballot box. Saddam Hussein has been illegally ruling – or ruining – Iraq for over 2 decades. He seized power by force and murder and against the will of everyone in the country and with the help of your own governments. So how is his government legal? The present Iraqi government, regardless of how it came to be, is far more legal and justifiable than Saddam Hussein’s was. And they have a right to try their own criminals.
So I suggest you save your misdirected sympathy and compassion towards Saddam Hussein for someone more deserving.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:15 pm (UTC)I’m Iraqi. My family has suffered directly, and continues to suffer, at the hands of Saddam Hussein for the past 30 years. And you have spent the past 2 days telling me that I have no right to wish him dead. That I have no right to want him tried for his crimes. That by not turning the other cheek I ‘become like him’.
Who’s patronising who?
Actually, I've spent most of the past two days working. If you'd like me to patronise you, I'nm quite happy to do so. So far I have spoken to you with great respect.
If you want somebody to die because you dislike what he has done, how are you different from him? If you do things because of hatred or a thirst for blood, how are you different from him? If you take pleasure in the thought of someone suffering, how are you different from him?
And exactly how does putting him to death mean that he’s won?
It's very simple. If we kill him, we will pay for it. Evil always rebounds on the perpetrator. His will rebound on him, without any need for us to murder him. Ours will also rebound. He wants us destroyed and you want us to help to destroy ourselves! You are Saddam's puppet. Any person that you hate has power over you. He controls your thoughts and actions. To deny him influence over you, it is necessary to overcome hatred.
We’re supposed to pat him on the back and say “it’s ok, we forgive you, hating you isn’t going to bring back our dead, so you go on your merry way and we’ll get over it”?
Why not imprison him, along with Bush and Blair? The three of them could punish each other. What are you afraid of? Why do you want this man to continue to have power over you?
If Hitler hadn’t killed himself, or had his friend shoot him or whatever, he would have been tried for his war crimes. Or do you not think he should have been tried? Do you think all of Hitler’s other henchmen who have been tried have been done an injustice? If that’s the case, then why do we bother trying any criminals at all?
I want Saddam tried, as you would know if you had paid attention to what I said, instead of what you want to believe I said. I just want the trial to be fair and legal. Why do you object to that? Are you afraid a fair trial may deny you your fun?
Or is it just Saddam Hussein that you don’t think should be tried? Why? Because the UK and America illegally invaded Iraq? Ok fine, they illegally invaded Iraq. How does that make his trial illegal or unjust? It’s not America or England that’s trying him. It’s the Iraqi government that is trying him. And just who the hell are you to decide that the Iraqi government is illegal? In case it escaped you, they were voted into power. I should know, because I distinctly remember casting my vote in the ballot box. Saddam Hussein has been illegally ruling – or ruining – Iraq for over 2 decades. He seized power by force and murder and against the will of everyone in the country and with the help of your own governments. So how is his government legal? The present Iraqi government, regardless of how it came to be, is far more legal and justifiable than Saddam Hussein’s was. And they have a right to try their own criminals.
The current government is a puppet regime put in to facilitate the theft of resources by the US,. You are the only Iraqi I have come across so far who doesn't see that.
So I suggest you save your misdirected sympathy and compassion towards Saddam Hussein for someone more deserving.
Again, you misunderstand me, deliberately perhaps. I believe everyone has the same rights. I would defend your rights too, should you be in his position. You, like Saddam, see only a world of friends and foes. I see a world of people. When Saddam is dead, your victory is going to be very hollow. You have set him up on his own little throne in your life and he will always be a part of your life, until you give up hatred and spite. I once made the same mistake you are making. I know how badly you are injuring yourself.
When we use the tactics and values of Saddam, we dishonour those he murdered. I respect them too much to do that.
Sorry if you find this patronising, but if you speak nonsense in public, people will challenge it.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 10:08 pm (UTC)Who are you to decide what's evil and not?
You have no idea what you're talking about. None whatsoever. And you have no right to butt into a private conversation and tell people they're not entitled to their opinions.
Who are you to decide what would be a fair trial?
You don't respect any Iraqis. If you did, you would respect their right to decide how to punish their own criminals. So please, do not pretend that you give a shit about the welfare of any Iraqi person.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 10:25 pm (UTC)I also never said you're not entitled to an opinion.
This isn't a private conversation. It's a public one.
I care more about the Iraqi people than you do, since you are the one who wants to kill one and I want them all to stay alive. You also support an oppressive regime, whereas I do not.
Admit it, you hate me because I'm telling the truth and it's truth you don't want to hear.
Incidentally, I always take bad language as an admission of defeat.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 09:21 pm (UTC)"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
"If we allow ourselves to hate, that is to ensure our spiritual defeat and our likeness to what we hate." - George William Russell
See? I'm not alone in thinking that those who hate Saddam will become like him.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 10:01 pm (UTC)You know, at first, I thought you were just idealistic.
Now, I get the impression that you're actually telling me that it's wrong to hate Saddam Hussein, in which case, I think you're sick. And no better than him.
And I really don't wish to continue this discussion with someone I have no respect for.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-11-30 10:19 pm (UTC)That has to be the most bizarre statement I've ever seen anywhere. Saying hate is wrong is sick?
It is wrong to hate anyone. It is not just wrong but stupid, weak and cowardly. It is a failure of humanity, an abrogation of responsibilities, an insult to those who have suffered as a result of hate. I am not the one who is sick.
Hatred is a disease. It will corrupt every part of your life. Your hatred for Saddam is his victory over you. I will allow him no such victory over me. You may be willing to surrender your life to a worthless tyrant, but I have better uses for mine. By granting him such power, you dishonour the dead. His victims deserve respect, even if I do not.
I wish you better sense in the future. Enjoy the vicarious thrill of his death. There will come a time when you are disgusted with yourself for desiring it. You might as well get all the pleasure you can from it now. Enjoy the next bomb in London or New York too. Those are also the result of hatred like yours.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-12-01 09:08 am (UTC)That is a hideous and despicable thing to say and completely out of line. You owe me an apology.
(no subject)
Date: 2005-12-01 01:38 pm (UTC)I understand you want to defend your view, but the comparison you're making is unfair. If it weren't for a matter of minutes, I would have had a much more personal experience on the 7th of July, and idle comments like that are more hurtful and hateful when you put them into that context.