Okay, seeing as conservative67 asked...

[ayoub]

Israel and Palestine.

Before proceeding, read up on your recent history here.

Now this is where, if you're easily offended by very negative words against Israel or Palestine, you will stop reading.

Still with me? Okay.

As the article I linked to above states:

During the years of the Palestine Mandate, from 1922 to 1947, large-scale Jewish immigration from abroad, mainly from Eastern Europe took place, the numbers swelling in the 1930s with the notorious Nazi persecution of Jewish populations. Palestinian demands for independence and resistance to Jewish immigration led to a rebellion in 1937, followed by continuing terrorism and violence from both sides during and immediately after World War II. Great Britain tried to implement various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. In 1947, Great Britain turned the problem over to the United Nations.

This should have been nipped in the bud back then. Troops should have come in and separated the two nations with embargoes put into effect regarding the purchase of arms.

The U.N. put in Resolution 181 (II) in 1947. This was largely ignored by Israel. This is something Israel as a nation have done repeatedly through the sordid history of its existence. Again, the U.N. should have sent troops in to ensure this peace process wasn't derailed.

Of course, 1n 1967, Israel became a bigger bully, throwing its weight around and stealing land from Egypt and Jordan. Security Council Resolution 242 ordered Israel to withdraw, but they didn't. Israel have ignored the world for a very long time.

I'm assuming you've read the rest of the document I linked to in the beginning, so I'll stop quoting it :P

Israelis and Palestinians have been at each other's throats since Israel was formed. Frankly, they've been at it long before then, too.

Israel is the more powerful force in this, and that is because of the support it has from many nations worldwide, not least of which is the U.S.A. Palestinians have been kept oppressed in Israel because of the power that the government wields.

According to the ACRI (the Association for Civil Rights in Israel):

The Palestinian population (excluding refugees) is around 5.3 million. About 3.9 million live in occupied Gaza and the West Bank, and another 1.4 million are Israeli citizens comprising 20% of the population of 7,150,000. They live mainly in three heartlands - the Galillee in the north, along the "Little Triangle" in the center, and the Negev in the south. They get no rights afforded Jews even though Israeli Arabs are citizens, have passports and Ids and can vote in Knesset elections. Even so, they're nonpersons, are systematically abused, neglected, and are confined to 2% of the land plus another 1% for agricultural use.

This level of human rights abuses has gone on for forty years, despite outcries, and despite the United Nations forming roadmap after roadmap.

It's been hypothesised by greater minds than mine that there is a chain of abuse. An abused person often becomes an abuser, and in my mind, I can't get away from the idea that this has happened to many Israelis. After suffering the abuses of the Holocaust, they are doing the same thing to Palestinians.

But then, the Palestinians aren't saints. They've resorted to killing civilians with suicide attacks, and random rockets. They've not tried to follow the roadmaps either, especially the latest one. Electing a terrorist organisation like Hamas is not a move for peace.

The only time there will be peace in that region, is if the entire area is nuked. Leave nothing standing, not even Jerusalem. If there's no land for these two violent and unapologetic nations to fight over, maybe they'll stop fighting.

Comments

[kay.livejournal.com]

I simply agree. There never was and there never will be peace there. I doubt they even want peace. Something in their blood just wants, needs war, death and blood. It's apparently what they live for .... neither one is very interested in peace, so why should we be? Sooner or later they'll have erediacted each other and the problem will be solved.

[shamrocks-13.livejournal.com]

Kinda how I view Iraq. They seem to want to fight, always. Like that movie with Jamie Foxx (yes, I know it is hollywoodized) where they said they, meaning the US, would pay. And how they teach their children to hate the US. They breed a lot of hate in the middle east. How can they ever want peace, truly?

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

They definitely don't want peace...

And yes, they will eventually eradicate each other. I just hope that they don't take us with them...

[the-ravyn.livejournal.com]

The only time there will be peace in that region, is if the entire area is nuked. Leave nothing standing, not even Jerusalem. If there's no land for these two violent and unapologetic nations to fight over, maybe they'll stop fighting.

This is the only part I disagree with you on.  This isn't just about land, Brother.  I think you know that.  These are two religious ideologies that go back to the time of Abraham.  Both sides think that they are the true inheritors of the birth right handed down by God to Abraham and therefore are entitled to all the spoils of such a birth right.  Elimination of land via nuclear annihilation won't stop this particular brand of warfare and hatred.

[naimhe35.livejournal.com]

I agree. I also believe there is some biblical prophecy in scripture that tell how this all plays out. I think I will have to research that.

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

Sadly, I feel in my gut that you're right.

I don't want to get into the religiosity of it, though... That's a real pit of snakes...

[eithnepdb.livejournal.com]

I would recommend an understanding of more than 92 years of history. This conflict, like that of so many others (Ireland and Britain, Croats and Serbs, Arab states etc) have hundreds if not thousands of years that have gone into what they are today.

If we followed your recommendation of nuking areas of the world that have turmoil well - there wouldn't be much left would there?

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

Most other conflicts have a difference. There are compromises that can be made, and a point to negotiations. Israel and Palestine, however, have been given roadmap after roadmap. They do not appear to want peace.

[shamrocks-13.livejournal.com]

Sometimes parking lots are needed to set an example, lol. I would like to make a parking lot of about 98% of this world!

[louenn.livejournal.com]

The whole area has been a mess going back to Biblical times, to the Old Testament. Can I point you in the direction of the Book of Exodus please? ;)

Nuking Jerusalem will just piss off, oh, about half of the global population, who see that city as a focal point for their religion. Not a viable solution to the problem, really.

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

:D

Indeed!

The problem is, both sides are not willing to compromise...

[conservative67.livejournal.com]

Thank you for posting your opinion I'm pretty sure you know my opinion so I won't re-state it here so as not to start a flame-war

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

:D

I do.

[authoressnebula.livejournal.com]

I like how you balanced out both sides, stating how they're both nowhere near perfect.

I sincerely wish that, honestly, the civilians could be removed and the entire landmass removed. They've fought and fought over the land for years on end in the name of their Gods. And it doesn't make any sense to me. How people could ever fight and take other human lives and say, "This is totally okay, because our God says it's cool"...I don't understand. And frankly, I don't think I'd ever want to understand a faith that makes any of this fighting and killing okay.

~Nebula

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

*hugs you*

It's terrifying...

[seegwa.livejournal.com]

The only time there will be peace in that region, is if the entire area is nuked. Leave nothing standing, not even Jerusalem. If there's no land for these two violent and unapologetic nations to fight over, maybe they'll stop fighting.

I once told an Israeli friend of mine that, if I was given Goddess like powers, I would wipe places like Israel and the Gaza Strip from the map. Raze it to the ground or sink it or something. Here, fight over dirt. She wasn't happy, being strongly jewish, but she understood. They're sick of the fighting too. But, they want Israel to be all theirs. Too bad the Muslims and Palestinians have an equally strong sense of entitlement.

Frankly, I would cleanse any region where there have been centuries of conflict. Enough is enough. Grow the fuck up, people. It's a HUGE world. It's possible to live in it along side people of other beliefs.

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

It's a ridiculous situation, with no real solution in sight :(

[bronxelf-ag001.livejournal.com]

You forgot something.

"and once again, religion shows us what it's really made of. Ad nauseam."

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

Religion... That's a whole side of it that I kinda kept away from.

But I agree.

[bangdrum.livejournal.com]

Hold up.

I'm not commenting on who-started-what or who's-badder-to-the-other or any of that, since I really don't pay a whole lot of attention to the details and I'm as religiously educated in Judaism as, I don't know, maybe a Hindu or something.

BUT I am going to take serious issue with the blowing-the-whole-thing-off-the-map idea for one very important reason:

World Jewish population: roughly 13.5 million (5.6 million or so in Israel)
World Sunni (I believe Palestinians are mostly Sunnis?) Muslim population: 1.6 billion or something (Palestinian territories: about 4 million)

Therefore, destroying all people, land, etc in Middle East fighting area = destroy 4/1600, or 1/400th of a percent of Sunni Muslims, and 5.6/13.5, or 41% of Jews.

The Holocaust destroyed some pretty large percentage of world Jewry (don't know the actual percent) - how is this any different? The fact that a tiny fraction of the world's Sunnis will also die doesn't defend the idea. (Plenty of homosexuals, gypsies, political dissidents, disabled and mentally ill people, and others died in the Holocaust too.)

Again, I'm not the world's staunchest supporter of Israel; I understand some of the arguments against a "Jewish state," etc. But I can't support any idea that involves eliminating even more Jews from the planet. Sorry.

[shamrocks-13.livejournal.com]

I agree, especially since Jehovah Witnesses were eliminated in the Holocaust as well.

I am, however, for eliminating ANYTHING that refuses to evolve. Are the Jews refusing to get along? If so, why keep them around? Just because their ancestors died for being a Jew before? No way man. Just because Jews were horribly mistreated once does not give them the right to be assholes and get away with it.

But I know little on the subject. I thing what happened to Jews in Hitlers time was inexcusable. It was an act of genocide. But Ayoub speaks of punishment because they are narrowminded.

[writer-lilies.livejournal.com]

Heh. Wow. You're thinking along the same lines I am. I didn't realize my gut reaction was actually based on facts.

Although I'm never for nuking folks. Saw the aftermath of that when I visited Hiroshima and just felt really, really guilty the entire time I was there. Course I'm a pacifist.

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

:D

Oh, I wouldn't want to nuke folks.... Just the land :)

[nepthytis.livejournal.com]

Lots of blame for everyone in that situation. Unfortunately, though I have had hope once or twice in the past few years, at this point I seriously doubt there will be any change there.

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

It's a terrifying situation...

[castlelady.livejournal.com]

I hate war, no matter what it's about. It's pointless, and there is definitely no such thing as a holy war.

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

Agreed!

[miintikwa.livejournal.com]

The ironic thing about the entire mess is that the Israelis and the Palestinians are two sides of the same coin, religiously speaking. Why they cannot get along is beyond me.

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

Sadly, common sense has long left that particular equation....

What if they gave a war and nobody came?

[adman.livejournal.com]

Every time I think of these things I think back on how most wars and so called conflicts aka wanna be wars are driven by religion and greed for oil, land and soon to be water which Canada has the most of and the Yanks will be willing to kill us for sooner than most think as they pollute and waste their water on green lawns and swimming pools while their lakes are dieing daily.. I digress.. but this will be the next war most likely in the next 10 to 20 years.

Think back and you will see catholic fighting protestant in N. Ireland, muslim fighting jews every where and each other for control, as in the Palestine case, tribes in Africa fighting neighbor tribes in the name of their God or out of fear if they don't they to will be slaughtered and so on. In most cases they are the so call fundamentalists, aka the crazy faction of any worth while religion on a power a struggle to take over the reins of power within that religion scaring the shit of their people till the fight or die and in most cases do both.

One thing I am thankful for, and that is, I am not a part of it directly but indirectly I am a Canadian and our troops are fighting in Afghanistan and to be honest ask most Canadians and they will tell you .. one.. they haven't got a clue why our boys are dieing daily, or two.. who they are fighting for or against.. or three.. what a fucking waste of humans and dollars that could do so much more good helping people instead of killing them and destroying their homes and lives no matter how humble, and four.. they just wish they would come home and say "fuck the USA" for pressuring us to support their oil grab war.. of course with a terrorist spin on it to justify it and so we will be guilted into going over there to fight and die for God knows what.

But HEY the BIG fucking war machine needs some where to sell it's arms and munitions to line their pockets with our children's blood don't they.

End of Rant!

Re: What if they gave a war and nobody came?

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

Religion is a tool for those with a greedy enough mind, because blind fervour can always be redirected.

War, sadly, is something that humanity is showing no signs of growing out of. :(

[kelly-pink.livejournal.com]

I believe war is wrong no matter what the reason. i also believe annihilating a group of people for any reason is a no go. We are humans, with the ability to think, rationalize and care. Even if, we took away the land it would not solve the problem. You have children...taking the toy they fight over makes them find something else to fight over...there has to be a way to find peace. I have to believe that through diplomacy and talking. The great peacemakers of the world cannot be wrong.

or I am really young and naive but...I choose to believe there is a way.

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

I hope there is a way too, but as long as the people cling to the past, that hope will fade...

[jvmatucha.livejournal.com]

If this wasn't friends locked, I'd want to link to it. Can I reproduce it on my journal? I'd leave you anonymous if so desired.

I also wouldn't take it personally if you said no. I understand how you might want to limit trolliness and whatnot.

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

You can link it... I'll make it public :)

[sabatoa.livejournal.com]

I'm coming from a Christian perspective in which I believe the prophecies in Revelations. (quaint, I know) Having said that, I believe that the region will be a focal point in the future and it all is supposed to end as we know it when the armies of the earth gather at Megiddo.

http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/Armageddon.shtml

Fun times!

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

Indeed...

What's scary, though, is that religious fanatics may try to engineer things to head that way.

[nonabloch.livejournal.com]

I'm sure it was a typo but Holocaust is always capitalized when you are referring to the Nazi persecution of Jews and other minorities during World War II.

As for the Israel/Palestine conflict, no side is innocent as you said. However, Palestinians have resorted to terrorist tactics and methods. Israel, while not always in the right, has defended themselves and their nation.

I won't say anything more as I have conflicting feelings about this. I continue to support Israel in all their efforts to find peace in this situation.

[ayoub.livejournal.com]

Israel used terrorist tactics right in the beginning too, back in 1917. And yes, I'll fix that typo :)